Welcome to Brief Encounters: Law School & Beyond, a podcast by Project LLM. The series explores journeys of Indian professionals who have pursued legal education abroad. The goal is to bring out stories, experiences, and practical advice to inspire and guide others considering an overseas legal education.
Today’s distinguished guest is Mr. Samar Jha. He is a dual-qualified attorney with a strong foundation in law and public administration. He earned his B.A. LL.B. (Hons.) from NALSAR University of Hyderabad, followed by an LL.M. in Banking, Corporate Finance, and Securities Law from the University of Pennsylvania Carey Law School. He further earned his expertise with a Master of Public Administration from the Fels Institute of Government at the University of Pennsylvania.
With extensive experience in government affairs and legislative strategy, he has played pivotal roles in various organizations, including his current position as Government Affairs Director at AARP, the American Association of Retired Persons. His career journey spans key positions at prominent law firms and public sector roles, where he has been instrumental in shaping public policy, legislative negotiation, and advocacy.
Let’s start from the very beginning. Can you share what initially inspired you to pursue a law degree at the undergraduate level?
It’s a great question because, you know, I was the first lawyer in my family at that time. Most of my family members, from my mom’s side, were either doctors or engineers—law wasn’t even considered as a career option. But I knew I didn’t want to be a doctor or an engineer. I was always interested in history and political science, even though I studied science in the 11th and 12th grades.
I remember in 11th grade, I sat down with my parents one day—it was raining outside—and told them, “Hey, listen, I can’t do engineering. It’s not my cup of tea. I want to do something different and sit for the law school entrance exams.” Initially, they were skeptical and asked, “Why not engineering? Why not go into the medical field?” But they eventually realized that if I was passionate and did well in the entrance exams, I could get into a good law school. Fortunately, things worked out, and I was accepted.
What influenced your decision to pivot to public administration later in your career?
It was a journey. As you may have seen from my profile, I used to be a corporate lawyer. When I did my LL.M., I still thought I’d go back to a corporate law career. But I was never happy working at a law firm; it just wasn’t my cup of tea. My then-girlfriend, now wife, noticed how miserable I seemed when I talked about my law firm life and suggested I explore something different. She recommended a public policy fellowship in Philadelphia, at the city council, as a graduate public policy fellow.
I applied for the position, and although it paid very little—$12 an hour compared to a law firm salary—I decided to take the chance. I fell in love with the work in public policy, the research, legislation review, and strategy. From then on, I pursued that career path. I realized that pursuing an MPA (Master of Public Administration) would be more beneficial than an MBA, as I knew I didn’t want to go into the corporate sector. Since I had already studied at the University of Pennsylvania, I wanted to continue there. The Fels Institute of Government has a great reputation, so I applied and did an executive MPA while working for a few years.
May I ask why you chose the University of Pennsylvania for your LL.M. program?
At that time, I was still considering a corporate law career. Penn has a strong corporate law program with excellent courses and professors, which aligned with my interest in the corporate law field. Philadelphia is also much more affordable than New York, which was another factor. I loved the city; it’s a great location, close to both DC and New York, providing access to a range of job markets and opportunities on the East Coast.
What key differences did you notice between legal education in India and the U.S.?
The emphasis on the Socratic method in U.S. law schools is a big difference. It’s a method where students are actively involved in the teaching, and professors can call on you to discuss various topics. I still remember we had assigned seats for the entire semester, and the professors knew exactly where each student was sitting. They’d look at the seating chart and call out, “Mr. Jha, can you explain this?” You had to be prepared at all times.
We had some of that back in India too, with iconic professors like Professor Menon, who was known for engaging students in class discussions. However, it’s much more emphasized in the U.S. law schools. Also, in the U.S., you’re surrounded by people who have a lot of professional experience, unlike in India, where most students enter law school directly after high school. In the U.S., most JD and LL.M. students have already completed their undergraduate degrees and worked for several years before joining law school. In my class at Penn, we even had judges from different countries.
You mentioned that most of your classmates had significant work experience, including judges from different countries. Did the high level of competition in your LL.M. program ever affect you?
One thing I can say is that the good thing about Indian education is that it prepares you for competition. Having studied at NALSAR, you’re already used to competing with some of the best students. So, when I entered the LL.M. program, I wasn’t intimidated. I had classmates with impressive backgrounds, like judges and senior advocates, but I was prepared for it.
If you attend a good university, whether in India or abroad, you will encounter competition. Everyone in these programs is focused on their career and knows what they want to achieve. So, yes, competition exists, but I was used to it and felt prepared for that environment.
For students like us who want to leverage an Indian law background for LL.M. applications, what advice would you give to stand out among thousands of applicants?
That’s a good question. While in law school, it’s essential to understand that you can pivot in your career at any point. I didn’t know exactly what I wanted to do when I entered law school—I thought I’d change the world, but things evolved over time.
If you already have a specific field of law you’re interested in, focus your internships and experiences in that area. NALSAR, being a reputable school, offers many choices, so choose wisely based on your career goals. If you aim for Ivy League schools or other top U.S. institutions, work experience is critical. They value candidates with practical experience, and, of course, good grades also matter.
It’s beneficial to have experience in the field you want to specialize in and to be involved in mooting, debating, and publishing research articles. Extracurriculars play a significant role, and engaging in activities like podcasts, for example, can also enhance your profile. These activities demonstrate initiative and leadership, which are valued during the application process.
You mentioned SOPs being important in the application process. What was your experience with them, and what made you stand out?
That’s a great question. In the U.S., the application process is quite different from the UK. The UK’s focus is more straightforward—they want to know why you’re applying to a particular college. In the U.S., there’s a more personal touch. The SOP is your opportunity to tell your story, your background, and how the program aligns with your career goals.
I always advise against using a one-size-fits-all SOP for multiple schools. It’s tempting, but it’s better to customize each SOP for the school you are genuinely interested in. Take the time to tailor your application to highlight why you specifically want to attend that law school and how you see yourself fitting in.
Was it your first time moving abroad when you went to Penn?
Yes, it was my first time living abroad, and it was also my first time in the U.S. Moving to a different country is a big shift. It’s not easy—you leave behind a comfortable life and step into an entirely different culture. Knowing the language, in my case, English, was helpful, but there were still significant cultural adjustments to make.
Could you share some cultural differences or funny incidents you experienced?
Definitely! One funny incident I still remember happened during my public policy fellowship at the Philadelphia City Council. In the U.S., when someone greets you with “Hi, how are you?” it’s just a greeting, not an invitation to start a conversation. But when I first moved, I didn’t know this. I’d stop and begin sharing how I was doing, and they would just keep walking past. I initially thought it was rude until I realized it’s just a formality here.
Another time, when I was out with my then-girlfriend (now wife), the server at a restaurant started with small talk like “Hi, how’s it going?” In India, you go straight to ordering food, but I didn’t greet the server properly, and my girlfriend had to point out that I should have responded. These are small cultural nuances, but they were new to me back then.
What were your key takeaways from your program at Penn Law?
One of the best experiences I had was working at the law school clinic, specifically the Intellectual Property Clinic. I love IP law, so I wanted to gain hands-on experience. The clinic was led by Professor Cynthia Dahl, who, in my opinion, is one of the best professors I’ve ever had. The clinic provided an opportunity to work directly with clients, mostly nonprofits, which was a valuable learning experience. It taught me a lot about the lawyer-client relationship in the U.S. and how the legal system functions there.
In your current role at AARP, which involves extensive legislative negotiation and advocacy, how has your legal education contributed to your success?
My legal training has been fundamental. When I review legislation, my background allows me to approach it as if I were reviewing a contract—analyzing the details and implications. My legal education equipped me to understand legislative drafting, which is crucial in my role. It’s all about applying the skills I developed in law school to negotiate and draft effectively in a legislative context.
How has your legal education influenced your role in public policy, especially when dealing with legislative negotiation and advocacy?
My legal training plays a significant role, particularly when reviewing or drafting legislation. In law school, we studied statutory interpretation, which is crucial when determining how specific words can change the meaning of a clause. This knowledge helps me analyze and influence legislation effectively. For example, when reviewing a bill, I can assess if certain language would benefit our organization and advise accordingly.
Negotiation is also a critical aspect of my role. It’s similar to contract negotiations in law firms but involves multiple stakeholders—government bodies, nonprofits, other organizations, and us. Navigating these different interests and finding common ground is where my legal training truly helps.
For students interested in the intersection of law and advocacy, what advice would you offer to build a strong foundation and navigate career choices?
If you’re already interested in public policy while in law school, tailor your internships to align with that interest. When I was in law school, the trend was mostly towards law firms, as public policy wasn’t as prominent then. However, now, with more students wanting to get into public policy and advocacy, it’s essential to gain experience in that area early on.
Think tanks and policy organizations are great places to start. For example, in India, organizations like the Center for Policy Research or others focus on various policy issues. Consider diversifying your education too. If you already have a legal degree, you might look into an MBA or a specialized public policy course, like the ones offered at the Fletcher School at Tufts University. Even law schools now have public policy tracks, so you can combine both areas.
It’s also important to specialize within public policy. There are various issue areas like tech policy, housing, transportation, and human rights. For instance, I work on housing and livable communities, while my colleagues focus on transportation and broadband. Education policy is another growing field, both in the U.S. and India. It’s essential to find the area you’re passionate about and build your career around it.
What are some key skills that students should develop if they want to pursue public policy and advocacy, especially when working with diverse stakeholders?
One critical skill is the ability to simplify complex legal information. In public policy, you often work with people who aren’t lawyers, so it’s crucial to break down legislation into simple, understandable terms. This skill—translating legal language into layman’s language—is vital when communicating with various stakeholders.
Negotiation skills are also essential. You need to know when to push for agreements and when to pull back. Understanding who your supporters are and who you need to convince is part of stakeholder auditing, which is a key component in public policy work. It involves identifying the different players and strategizing how to engage with them effectively.
Lastly, practical experience is invaluable. Programs like the one at the Fels Institute of Government offer practical education taught by professionals in the field. They provide insights into real-world scenarios, helping students understand how to apply their knowledge beyond the classroom.
What emerging trends in public policy and legislative strategy should future legal professionals be aware of?
Tech policy is a major trend, but it’s not the only one. Housing policy and real estate development are significant areas, especially with rapid development in countries like India. Education policy is also growing, addressing issues from primary to higher education at both state and federal levels.
Human rights and constitutional issues remain critical areas of focus. It’s essential for professionals interested in public policy to keep these trends in mind as they navigate their careers. On the corporate side, understanding changes in transportation policies, like those Uber works on, is also important. Even if the sector is technology-based, its impact on public policy is significant.
Based on your experience, what advice would you give to students currently pursuing or planning to pursue an LL.M.?
First, choose the law school wisely. Understand what you want to study and ensure it aligns with your career goals. Indian students often face challenges in finding jobs, particularly in the U.S., because U.S. or UK law firms typically don’t have corresponding offices in India. This makes it difficult for them to offer Indian students a pathway from their New York or London offices back to India.
To increase your chances, widen your job search beyond just corporate law. Many students aim for big law firms, but there are also plenty of opportunities in policy, nonprofit sectors, and fellowships that value legal expertise. If you’re taking the New York Bar exam, it’s a good credential, but don’t limit your job search. Explore websites like Indeed.com, LinkedIn, or Idealist.org for nonprofit roles and policy fellowships.
It’s important to remain open-minded and remember that you only need one job. You might face a lot of rejections—I have a folder in my email for all the rejection letters I’ve received. It’s a reminder that rejections are part of the process. If I hadn’t taken up the public policy fellowship, thinking I should only focus on corporate law, I might not be here today discussing this with you.
Is there anything else you’d like to share about your journey or any final thoughts for our listeners?
It’s been a fascinating journey. I never imagined I’d be lobbying and working in advocacy in the U.S., but here I am. I would encourage students to keep an open mind and broaden their job search. Sometimes, the path you end up on may not be what you originally planned, like a corporate law job, but it can be equally rewarding.
Today, I work on issues that I care about, and I sleep well at night knowing that I’m making a positive impact. It’s important to find work that resonates with you, even if it’s different from your initial expectations.
(This transcript is based on the original interview’s audio. It is a refined version and may contain minor errors, omissions, or variations from the verbatim recording. For the guest’s exact inputs and sentiments, please listen to the podcast episode.)
